Today, we're speaking with Kerry Van Voris. For over 15 years, Kerry has been completely focused on the world of talent, attracting, placing, and growing people across the technology, financial and healthcare industries. Kerry is currently Chief People Officer at Oscar Health after leadership positions at Amazon, Microsoft, and Bridgewater. We'll talk about inspiring individuals and finding their loyalty to the purpose of an organization using that inspiration as a common thread for different styles of coaching, and the way that focusing on blind spots can be the best approach to increasing effectiveness. Kerry and I have known each other for almost a decade, and I am thrilled to have her join our conversation and share her wisdom. So Kerry, thank you so much for being a part of Coaching in the Clear and welcome to our podcast.

Thanks for having me, Jeff. I'm really happy to be here and having the opportunity to chat with you.

Fantastic. Okay. So let's just start at the beginning. What was your first experience with a coach?

When I think about coaching, I mean, for me it really comes down to sixth grade. You know, I was just a kid growing up and, and somebody, a friend of mine in school who happened to be in seventh grade, said, Hey, you should try out for the basketball team. And I'd never touched a basketball in my life and, you know, I didn't know anything and, and thought it was just kind of a, it would be like one night after school, a week and found myself found myself kind of playing basketball for two and a half hours a day after school. All due to the, the gentleman who was coaching the team and his name was it's, his name is Dave Margraf. And so that was really my first experience with a coach and outside of it being, you know, apparent or anything like that.

And, and so much of what he taught me and how he coached still rings true, actually in my personal and professional life. I mean, one of the, one of the biggest things that I, I realized about him is that he coached each one of us on the team very differently. And he was adept at recognizing what would motivate each one of us and how there were some of us that really responded to encouragement and positive reinforcement. And there were others on the team. Particularly one, one girl who was just an incredible athlete that that responded more to with the coaching. That was, that was really hard and actually was much more negative and much more about everything that she was doing wrong instead of pumping her up and motivating her too with encouragement. And I found that both super interesting and and also really effective.

So you bring up a great topic and what I've experienced over the course of doing these podcasts is typically this will come up later, but you just gave a great intro segue into it. So two things, one I want to explore what makes somebody coachable and you have a, you have a great perspective on that because as a leader at Oscar, you're a person who thinks about coaching and how coaching will work with leaders, et cetera. And so I want to talk about that. And then the other thing is in our coaching, at least we're sort of going in and we check for this when we're matching people, but we go in with a very clear goal. What we're trying to do is unleash your potential. And that means we're going to be focusing on trying to get you to find your individual point of excellence or greatness and drive you towards it, which means, you know, to do that, it's really hard.

And you've got to have a certain motivation to want to go down that path. And not everybody does want to go down that path. So we try to sort it out, but a lot of people don't want to go to coaching for that. A lot of people want to go to coaching for something else, for a safe space to explore issues, et cetera. And it sounded like this coach was figuring out, Dave was figuring out how to put together an incredible team where there were different motivations on the team, but ultimately he wanted the team to win and function well together. Am I, am I getting that right? Yeah.

That's exactly right. And he had to kind of handle each individual differently in order to get there.

So now let's take that to your, to your current life, to your professional life. When you're working with leadership teams and you're trying to put together this fantastic team, that's gonna achieve incredibly difficult goals. Oscar has done amazing things. You've worked at very distinguished, amazing organizations like Bridgewater and others. So you've actually been a part of teams that have, that have striven for excellence and know that they're going to have to work incredibly well together in order to get there, but are very different people and have different motivations to try to function well together as a team and achieve that goal. How do you, in that thinking like Dave, how do you take a look at each person around that table and think about what they need and what their motivations are.

Yeah. And, and it's, it kind of, there are just certain themes that I look for Jeff and, and the first one, the first one really is across the team. I look to ensure that each individual is aligned to the larger goal. I mean, that's one of the first things and just make sure that each individual believes in the vision of the company, or team or whatever it is, and truly wants to be part of it. I think that's, that's one, one the main thing. And then for each individual, when I think about coaching and what makes sense, and that could be, that could be hiring an external coach that could be individual one-off, you know, sidebar coaching from me, et cetera. The, the first, the, the first thing that individual has to have is just a hunger for improvement. They have to actually want it, like you mentioned, and want to evolve and want to improve.

And then secondly, I think, I think they have to have this raw openness to feedback, because like you mentioned, it's not, it's not, coaching isn't pretty things are gonna come up as you're being coached. Even as you're coaching others where just, just ugliness is going to come up or you're going to hear things that are really hard to hear. You don't want to hear. So someone having the openness to feedback is going to be a really important thing. And then, and then third for an individual, I think there's gotta be an awareness that, that each person has blind spots and they don't have to necessarily know what those blind spots are, because I think that's part of the, the excellent part of coaching is that you get to unearth those blind spots and then figure out what to do about them. But you have to at least have the awareness that we're not, none of us are perfect. And, and that each one of us has blind spots and, and, and coaching is part of the process to really identify those. And then, and then, then figure out what to do about them.

Awesome. So I've asked that question now, I think six, six different people, and the answers are similar and you're, I think you're answer encapsulates it particularly well. There's elements of the hunger, the drive for improvement, the desire to get better. And there's the humility of entering that arena and being open to what you're going to discover about yourself. It's more than curiosity. There's a humility to, like, I do have blind spots. I do have problems. I don't have it all the, all the answers and I have to enter that arena sort of understanding that and, and being okay with that.

Yeah, absolutely. Jeff and I think, you know, one of the, one of the things I always go back to is just, you know, the, that whole aspect of the growth mindset, right. That someone I think to, to enter the arena, it's really important for them to have, to know that they're going to grow by identifying the blind spots and working with someone to figure out what to do with them. That there's an opportunity to actually change direction and truly, truly get better. Okay, great. So I love the concept of the growth mindset. Have you ever experienced someone who you didn't think had the growth mindset? Like they seem to be not open, not hungry, not humble. And it was really about them, the context they were in or the place they were in more than like this innate sort of set of beliefs about themselves. Cause I think one of the things about Dr. Dwecks work and, and with growth mindset is there's almost this, at least as far as I understand it, and I could be completely wrong here just to be clear. But but I always sort of said it as like, there's a set of beliefs, right. And beliefs, or at least the way I understand what beliefs are, they're very deeply held. They're not really super accessible to a reflection they're sort of driving your behaviors, but doesn't mean that you actually even know they're there.

So there's this set of beliefs about like the potential and opportunity for growth and, and through those beliefs, then you come to the place of being hungry and humble. I, so that, that may be right, or that may be wrong. I don't know, but the thing I've experienced and I'd love to get your perspective on this, is that those beliefs aren't actually poured in concrete, inside a person. And they're very context dependent that when you get an excellent leader, an excellent manager, an excellent coach, like you were speaking about with Dave, who can create safety so that you feel like you could try to be your best, or you could try something new, then the hunger and humility can evolve out of that safety, as opposed to sort of being a set of beliefs that you're walking into, regardless of what situation you're in. What do you, what have you experienced?

No, and it's so interesting, Jeff. I mean, I, I'm sitting here just, you know, jotting a few things down as they come to me and I literally just wrote down, I was like environment. It has to be safe. And I, I mean, to me, I think you nailed it because the environment does shift and there are some environments for individuals that just aren't, aren't a fit. And either you know, the environment for the individual isn't safe, the individual for some reason has a difficult time just kind of letting down their guard and, and kind of diminishing the ego in order to actually receive the coaching. So you know, I find, I find a couple of things. I mean, either putting them in a different environment that might be safer, where they can fail and feel comfortable failing is one thing. And then the other thing it's sometimes, sometimes actually finding a coach that makes them feel really safe and gets them to a comfortable point during the coaching of even saying, Hey, and if we come out of this and, and realize that the environment or company you're a part of now, isn't the right fit, that's okay, too. And even, so I find, I have found that individuals will, will often if that's part of the coaching will, will open up more so if the coach helps them get to the mental state of, Hey, if, if one of the outcomes of this is that you, you leave the current team or you leave the current company, that's an okay outcome.

Yeah. When we were, to piggyback on that, when, when we were moving from just purely individual coaching to group coaching, especially when a group coaching, like coaching, a lot of executives on the same team, something I had to learn the hard way is that is, I made a lot of mistakes around this, is I'd be coaching a CEO and then four people on the executive team let's say, and I was getting a lot more traction with the CEO than with the four members of the executive team, even though they had all volunteered to be there. And then one day it dawned on me. I might go, of course they don't feel safe because they think I'm a conduit pack to the CEO.

Yeah, yeah. Your work with the CEO. Sure.

Right. Because of course the power, the power dynamic, the hierarchy that exists in their world exists in our relationship too. And so it drove me to this very simple but important set of principles that I bring when I'm going into those situations. And I'll first address it with the CEO and then I'll address it with everybody else individually. When I'm coaching you, I'm just coaching you. I'm not coaching you to get you someplace for someone else. I'm only coaching you to get you to the best place for you. And that might mean that we come to a point where I'm like, yeah, this isn't a good CEO for you. And this isn't a good place for you. There's a better place for you and don't hire me or anybody at Talentism who does this work if you're not going to be okay with that conversation, because if you're not going to be okay with that, this is going to go really badly cause I can't build the trust I need to actually just create that, that safety so that we can really do the work well one-on-one. Does that, does that make sense to you?

Yeah. It really resonates Jeff it's it's, it's that it's that trust. It has to be there in order for in order for individuals and teams to open up and, and help help move the process forward. And then, you know, just general comfort with, with the outcome, maybe looking a little bit different than you thought it might be when entering the coaching relationship.

Yeah. And I think it's, I would imagine in your role, that you experience this as a sort of organizational and or enterprise coach, because part of the role of the chief people officer is the, to be the coach, to the team and, and to sort of be there for each individual and build that trust while also representing the goals of the overall organization. I've always been fascinated with people who could do that well. They could be there for the organization, they're there to achieve, as you said, the goals or vision of the organization, but they don't put, they don't put that above building the trust of the relationship with the individual executive. You are there trying to help unleash their greatness. And so how do you, how do you deal with that tension? How do you think through that?

Yeah, and it is very interesting because as, as a chief people officer, you know, an HR sometimes gets, gets a bit of a bad rap, right. Because I think, you know, one of the, one of the views about HR is kind of, you know, that, that you, you hold a lot of the, the company kind of people, people secrets and, and are able to kind of just conduct things in the background. And, and I actually look at the position completely differently. Yes, I, I, you know, when I'm, when I'm with a corporation and you know, for right now with Oscar, yes, I, I work for the company and, and the company's, the company's goals and best interests are, are crucial to my job. And I think about that all the time. And then I also, I mean, I'm the voice of our employees and our leaders and I, I deeply care about I deeply care about them as a group and I care about, I care about our people as individuals. So when I think about be it, my peers, or even, even our CEO for that matter, I it's, it's really important to me that they know and understand that I, I do have their best interests at heart. And when I say best interests, it's that they are thriving and having the most impact that they are able to have at the company and, and just, and just happy and wanting to be there. And, and that, that in and of itself, I think when, as people know that that truly is what I, what I want and care about it, it helps to, it helps to just make it a much more straight forward conversation about where they're going or, or, or the kind of impact that they want and are able to have at the company.

We talk a lot about the ability to make sense of what's happening around you. And a little bit later, I want to talk about this concept of making sense of things and connecting it to this concept of safety. But, but what we believe is that if you can't make sense of things around you, you are not productive. And then companies, you know, when they, when they hire someone they're saying, Hey, listen, we'll, we'll compensate you, we'll invest in, you, we'll do these things. And in return, you're going to do great work. And that's the, that's the contract, that's the agreement we have. And then sometimes people do great work. Sometimes they do incredible work, and sometimes they don't. And when you dig into that, a lot of times it's because the thing you thought you were investing in and saying, okay, come to our business and bring that special talent you have to help us achieve our goals, isn't happening in, in that place in your company, because they can't, the employee can't make sense of what's going on - culture, manager, there's something going on where it's really confusing them and confused people are not productive people. And so, so I always, you know, when CEOs will, will talk to me and they'll say, how could you have told my CFO, talking to him that, like, I'm not the right CEO for him. I'm like, look, I'm trying to help this. Everybody. When you, when you've got a confused person and you refuse to acknowledge that and work productively through that, then you're just paying a lot of money to make somebody miserable. And it's a terrible thing to do. It's terrible thing for you. It's a terrible thing for them. Let's work hard to see if we can work on that and resolve it.

But if we can't, trying to ignore it is a terrible, is the worst option you have. And so I don't think in when a chief people officers I work with who are extraordinary in their jobs, they're doing what you're talking about. They can hold both the nature of like what's best for the company and what's best for the individual together. Cause they understand when somebody is in their home and they're doing their best work, they're helping the company. And when they aren't doing their best work and that's not because the manager has done something bad, there's always those cases, of course, but it's just like not a fit. That ignoring that is actually to everybody's detriment, not to, everybody's not to everybody's benefit.

Right. And, and, and horribly painful as you explore it. And as you mentioned, Jeff, really detrimental to the business and, and, and oftentimes I think it, it creates just a lingering effect on the individual that, that makes it, even as they move on, if that ends up being the right decision it just, it lingers with them for awhile. And so getting, you know, not ignoring it is is, is always the right thing.

Yeah. When I, when I started coaching I used to tell people, I used to tell executives, they'd say, well, give me the secret. Like, what's the one thing. And I'd say, well, the one thing, like, if you could just accept who you are and what you are like, you could be way more successful than you are. And they always told me, Oh, that's such a foo foo answer. And I'm like, yeah, you'll get it eventually. You'll find your way there, we'll work through it. Now I always say, well, the first thing is accept what you are, second is like, get over your conflict avoidance problem, because your conflict avoidance problem always leads to bad outcomes. And the number of conversations that need to be held that aren't held because the executive is like, Oh, I don't like I could make them mad and then they're gonna leave. And what do I do without them? This is a terrible way to run a business. Like we got to work through this.

Yeah. Never. And never, you said something interesting. It's like that, that fear of, I think for executives or managers or that prevents them from helping an individual make the right decision, potentially move to another team, go to another company. You know, part of my role is I never want any of my leaders to to make a decision based on fear or feeling like they're backed into a corner. And so I, you know, that's something at least that, that I always keep top of mind. So, so leaders and managers can, can help, help get to the right decision and in a place of just balance and being proactive instead of super reactive.

Yeah. I love that. So let's go back to something you said earlier, because I think there's some threads here that are interesting and sort of start weaving together. You had said, Hey, listen, I'm going to start from a place with my leaders of first of all, making sure they're aligned to the larger goal. They believe in the vision. They believe in what we're trying to do. And then we talked about what makes somebody coachable and we agreed it was this combination of hunger and humility. What do you do when you've got an executive or group of executives on a team who truly believe in the goal, but actually will accept no personal responsibility for their own growth, progress or contribution to what's happening in the organization.

It's really hard, Jeff. It is really, really hard. Because you, you ultimately feel like you have a lot of the right ingredients in someone. And usually the, and usually I find these individuals are extraordinarily capable. They're very good at their, they're very good at their jobs. And so you know, it's, it's hard. And I think, I mean, one of the things is certainly one, you can kind of wear them down with constant constant feedback, at least from me or conversation. I oftentimes will pull in people that they trust and maybe even find more credible. I think that's one of the things when, when someone isn't isn't hungry for the improvement or, or humble you know, sometimes they don't, they don't want to hear from me. But they might trust someone or, or find someone else in the organization more credible. And that's where a lot of times there can be inroads and, and finding, finding someone else's voice that's gonna, that, that is going to be heard better from an individual like that.

I think that's an incredibly fantastic answer. And I, I just want to call this out to anybody who's listening, because it took me years to learn what you just said, which is as a coach when I'm, when I'm working with someone and I'm saying, okay, once we get to a certain point, I'm going to be, I'm going to be by your side as we work towards your goals. I'm not just showing up every once in a while and trying to help you make sense of things. I'm going to care deeply, fundamentally passionately about where you're going and what you're trying to achieve. And there'll be times where we've identified a problem. And I know you're just not going to listen to me and we don't have time to figure out why you're not listening to me. We got to get through to it. And so who else can we bring to the table?

Who's going to have you go, Oh, geez. I hadn't thought of it that way. And I, and I talk about this all the time. My wife says yeah, if I ever really want you to get what I'm saying, I just have to like, have your mom say it to you or something like that. There's somebody else who's got to tell you. And, and by the way, since she listens to this podcast, I'm trying to get better, honey. But but listen, we all have different voices who we'll listen to at different times. And so often it's the role of a coach or the role of a leader inside an organization to figure out like, who, who are you going to listen to? It's not just that insight that Dave had in sixth grade with you, like different people are gonna have different motivations are gonna, they're also gonna listen to different voices.

And so I think that's a really fabulous insight that people should take away should take away from that. So thank you for sharing that. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about this concept of safety, because I think it's a really, I mean, psychological safety is sort of the core in the corporate lexicon. I think hit about four years ago with Google's work and really started to take flight. But now it's a frequent topic of conversation. And I find that different people mean different things by safety. Some people mean, when creating psychological safety or a safe environment, they're really talking about people not ever feeling under threat feeling under, and by threat I don't, we use that word to mean, like, I feel triggered. I feel like you don't respect me. You don't like me. There's something in that, that I'm feeling emotionally disturbed or agitated based on an interaction I'm having, or a perception about the interaction we're having.

So some people say, Hey, listen, a place isn't safe if, if people are ever experiencing that sort of disorientation or discord, and then some people say, no, it's actually like human beings, even when they love each other and support each other and trust each other, get into conflict, it happens. And so really psychological safety is about feeling safe and raising those issues and being able to productively work through them. How do you think about it is as a people leader? How do you think about that topic and how do you implement that in your workplaces?

Yeah, and I think it's one of the reasons that um, really understanding as much as you possibly can, the kind of culture you're entering into when you join a company is really, really important. And there are, there are some companies that, that value this discord or disagreement or, or, or conflict more than others. And I think depending on how, how an individual is wired, that that works really well for some and for others it doesn't. So knowing, knowing the, the, the culture you're opting into when you, when you, when you work, start, start with the company is really, is really important. And then and, and I have worked as, you know, Jeff and I have opted in for those kinds of cultures, because I think there is such high value in, in being able to, to, to disagree, to receive difficult feedback and to, and to work through work through conflict.

It's not easy. These cultures and companies are, are not, not easy places, but I, I am a believer that they, they bring the most out of people. And, and I, and I, even though these cultures are often intense and uncomfortable and hard, I actually think that they're safer. Because in most cases they're transparent, they're honest kinds of cultures, and those are the values that you see from people. One of the underlying things that I think is so critical to having a culture be safe is just is just the intention of individuals and that are operating in the, in the culture and the values. I think they can't be, they can't be manipulative. And I think if you, you know, one of the things that I thought about with, you know, especially having been at Bridgewater is it with the principals is thinking, you know, it's like really, really strong set of guidance that that if you manipulate it, it can just really be received in a, just in a way that, that doesn't work and is wrong. And it's kind of like, you know, handing a 13 year old the keys to a Ferrari and saying like, now this is going to be a really powerful car, but I want you to, I want you to drive it really slowly and, and not like whip it around the street. It's just, it's really difficult. So people have to be, you know, really thoughtful about how, how they're operating within the culture. And I think that that helps to create a safe environment.

I, I think that's, well, first of all, you and I met at Bridgewater and worked together at Bridgewater. So we, we share that experience. And I not only from my work prior to Bridgewater, at Bridgewater, but also as an entrepreneur and starting my own companies, try to bring a culture or try to represent a culture and help build a culture where people can unleash their potential and where they can do that not by thinking of safety in terms of, I don't ever want to be uncomfortable, but thinking of safety more in terms of like, I can make sense of what's going on and I can learn really well. And of course not everybody wants to do that. Right. And that's fine. As you, as we've talked about, there are, there are people who don't understand the value of being a humble, humble, and hungry.

They don't understand the value of that because they've never felt like they were in a place that really rewarded that, maybe paid lip service to it but if you ever said, Hey, listen, I'd like some negative feedback. They'd instead get a, like a lot of terrible stuff that made no sense to them. And so, so that always has made sense to me, but one of the things that I've really grown to appreciate over the last five years, and, and I, frankly, I, I credit my kids with this. I have grown children who are very active in different communities and, and they've really taught me a lot about just privilege and blind spots. And they've taught me a lot about like, Hey, listen, when you're a big white guy, you don't even know a lot. You don't understand what's going on with other people.

And when we take you and put you in a position of power and you have those blind spots and you aren't every day trying to uncover them and make it better you're, you've got a lot of problems and you could be a risk to others. And when, when they first started communicating that to me, of course, you're, you know, you have that classic sort of father reaction of like kids, what do they know? Right. But then as real, cause I of course love them and I was listening to them. I'm like, wow, this is really profound. And it's impacting me fundamentally. And I, I don't think that people, I love your Ferrari analogy because transparency and truth in giving open and honest feedback and engaging in those conversations is such a powerful tool. But in the hands of somebody who's fundamentally blind to their privilege, to their position of power, et cetera, those tools can often be used to the detriment, not only of the company that we all care about, but also that individual. And so how do you, when, cause you so eloquently answered earlier about the need for humility and for hunger and especially around blind spots, how do you work with leadership to help them understand the blind spots they're bringing into the room when they're thinking about concepts or topics like safety.

I mean, Jeff, and especially, especially now because you, you mentioned it, it's like not everyone is aware of the position of privilege that they may walk into the room with. And, and that's something, especially recently, as we've been working through just unconscious biases of, of, of leadership and managers and, you know, individuals across the board and a company needs help. And when I say a company needs help, it's, it's, it's really pulling in, I have found, you know, external experts to truly help identify that in individuals, across teams by utilizing tools, by utilizing, you know, impactful trainings. We recently went through one, you know, my team, and then we've, we've put it out across Oscar of, you know, an unconscious bias training where you walk through exercises that, that you get to learn about yourself and how you, you do have unconscious bias. And, and then it's working through what, what to do about it. And, and especially now I feel like we're at a different point in, in companies and corporations where at least leaders are, are open to saying, Hey, I I'm ready to, I'm ready to be open about the position of privilege that I come to the table with, and I'm ready to receive feedback and I want to change, because it's so important to the health of the company and the health of, of individuals on my team.

Yeah. To connect it back to this concept that we've been talking about. I think what this moment in time is finally starting to drive is a basic, fundamental openness for people who've had this position of privilege to start to think about hunger and humility in themselves to challenge themselves on their most basic beliefs. And, and again, those beliefs are, they're not conscious. They, you said it, you know, it's unconscious, but that doesn't mean they're not accessible. And through the work of coaching is often so difficult because, because you said it, you know, coaching is difficult. It's so difficult because at least in the way we do it, we talk a lot about, we're going to take a look at what you did and we're going to help you figure out why you did it. And when we help you figure out why you did it, we may end up in a really uncomfortable spot because it may be that you actually are blind to how privilege is being used, not to help the organization, not to help the individuals within the organization, but just to protect yourself. And, and when that happens, you end up with not only people who don't build a sense of trust in their leadership, but also an organization that really can't achieve its big goals, because there's just a lot of confusion and the confusion, you know, zaps the productivity of the organization.

Yeah. And it's really, really painful for a person to hear about that. Right. And that but if they're open to it and, and open to working through the pain it can you know, it can, even less to the company. I think it can be, it can be pretty life-changing in the individual.

Yeah. I agree. One of the things I love about my work about our work and by our, I don't just mean Talentism, I mean, like the work you and I share of helping build these extraordinary teams is the chance to watch people finally become open to and expose to these concepts and start to learn about themselves and unleash their potential. It's an incredibly cool thing to participate in.

Yeah. It, it's, it's really, really fun. I think that was one of the things that originally attracted me, you know, toward continuing a career in recruiting is just that you're, you, you, you have, you don't just hire people in, but then you get to work with them as managers in building out their teams and, and, and you get to see what they do. And and that to me has always been such a fulfilling part of being in the space that you and I are in. And yeah, you, you get to see what these incredible people that you've helped to, to hire what, what they, what they go on to do for the company.

Yeah. And I'd like to to close out our, our time together with a admission, which is you and I met a little over nine years ago. I remember the day we met. I was interviewing at Bridgewater. You were one of the senior recruiters who was working on my position. And it was you and several other people who we, we mutually know I met for the first time. And I came out of that room more so than meeting the other big names that I was being recruited by. I came out of that room and made a decision I wanted to join Bridgewater because of just how awesome you were. So nine years later, I wanted to thank you for that. And and share that reflection publicly that it's been a privilege and an honor to, to know you over these last nine years.

Aw thanks, Jeff. That means a lot. I remember that day too. And you were such a critical hire into Bridgewater at that time, especially. And and then obviously just, just became such a mentor to me. So and, and, you know, have, have continued to help me along my path. So very, very grateful.

Thank you. Okay. with that, we're going to end and Kerry, once again, so grateful, it was wonderful to speak with you. Thank you for taking the time to be on our podcast.

Thanks so much for having me, Jeff.